Class Balancing - Games Taking the Wrong Approach?

The way I see MMO classes might be different from your average MMOer. I see them as specializations of different fields, rather than different flavors of future PvP combatants. I believe that they should be meant to have their own thing, without being totally even when going head-to-head. For example, Clerics shouldn't be able to fight off an Assassin unless the Cleric is a lot more powerful.

Knight-type jobs? They should have skills focusing on taking down large creatures, like dragons. Tanking and drawing the enemy's attention is a must(so long as the taunting skills can work in PvP too, but that's another topic)

Archer-type jobs should probably focus on hunting. Sniping, group hunting, and killing an enemy before the enemy can touch them is a must, so they'll need ways to deal with each possible adversary. Also, high damage with different arrow types for different enemy defense types.

Assassin-type jobs, like Archer-types, need to be able to kill before their target can react. Cause you know. They're ASSASSINATING something. Bonus points if they can't be seen while doing so. But this class type should be a pushover if they confront an opponent face-to-face. Their strength comes from surprise, stealth, and fast retreating.

Healer types, while still possibly being able to fight, should specialize in recovery. Clerics and Medics mainly, while Priests may double as mages. Doctor types should be presented as neutral parties, healing the "enemy" as well.

Mage-type classes need to be more diverse, but still clearly defined. Wizards are scholars - they learn magic from books and teachings. Sorcerers are the opposite, they should get their abilities from demonic pacts and rituals. Also, mages of any type should have more "utility" spells, able to perform other tasks, rather than having all attack spells. Not to mention curses and whatnot, indirect attacks against their enemies. Also, classes with summons SHOULD NOT BE WEAKER just because they CAN summon help.

And GASP, civilian classes? Perish the thought, but they exist in each MMORPG setting, they're just not available to play for some reason. But assuming they are... they'd have little to no combat ability. Maybe a few attacks here & there if you CHOOSE to fight as a civilian class, but nothing they have should compete with actual combat classes. Their specialties are in the workplace, on stage, or out in the fields.

orangeitis wrote:<snip> Also, mages of any type should have more "utility" spells, able to perform other tasks, rather than having all attack spells. Not to mention curses and whatnot, indirect attacks against their enemies. Also, classes with summons SHOULD NOT BE WEAKER just because they CAN summon help.

YES! More utility skills, but then you'd have to have a game that actually NEEDs those skills. Like I guess Occulus-reparo from harry potter would work if you had broken gear.

orangeitis wrote:
And GASP, civilian classes? Perish the thought, but they exist in each MMORPG setting, they're just not available to play for some reason. But assuming they are... they'd have little to no combat ability. Maybe a few attacks here & there if you CHOOSE to fight as a civilian class, but nothing they have should compete with actual combat classes. Their specialties are in the workplace, on stage, or out in the fields.

Yeah. I'd like to see this in some way. It's however very hard to consider playing this role in a game that includes lots of combat (not saying that the game must include lots of combat).

Starting off as a civillian should give some sort of bonus or less of a negative in some regard. For instance; you should be decent at crafting or building a limited number of things, allowing the higher tiers of crafters/builders to be able to craft things very well and build things very well. So then why would someone want to remain a civillian? It might be better for it to be possible to relinquish your "job" to become a civillian if you need to, but be able to re-acquire your title if you wanted. Like a non-crafting/building character would have a poor time making things or building things or repairing things unless they were a civillian. So when the guild was attacked or they'd want to make or craft some limited amount of items, they'd have to become a civillian first.

I could expand on this and fix some exploitations and other problems, but from a starting point something like that could be balanced out. The only game that I know that had a class specific for crafting was L2.

S wrote:YES! More utility skills, but then you'd have to have a game that actually NEEDs those skills. Like I guess Occulus-reparo from harry potter would work if you had broken gear.

Occuwha...? (sorry, never read HP)

Anyway, another utility skill fan! I was thinking that even combat-heavy classes should have plenty of utility skills. Warriors who use their blades to chop through obstacles like vines and cobwebs, and mages who can light torches with fire spells and such. Utility skills are a great way to spice up any class, IMO.

S wrote:Yeah. I'd like to see this in some way. It's however very hard to consider playing this role in a game that includes lots of combat (not saying that the game must include lots of combat).

Starting off as a civillian should give some sort of bonus or less of a negative in some regard. For instance; you should be decent at crafting or building a limited number of things, allowing the higher tiers of crafters/builders to be able to craft things very well and build things very well. So then why would someone want to remain a civillian? It might be better for it to be possible to relinquish your "job" to become a civillian if you need to, but be able to re-acquire your title if you wanted. Like a non-crafting/building character would have a poor time making things or building things or repairing things unless they were a civillian. So when the guild was attacked or they'd want to make or craft some limited amount of items, they'd have to become a civillian first.

I could expand on this and fix some exploitations and other problems, but from a starting point something like that could be balanced out. The only game that I know that had a class specific for crafting was L2.

The way I see it, civilians need to start out with tons of utility skills, and work their way up to privileges that other classes don't have, such as shop/farm ownership.

And keeping on-topic, every class needs to take advantage of the stat system, including civilian classes. They'd focus on charisma and dexterity the most, I'd think, with maybe adding vitality/constitution focus for farmers.

As for remaining the job you take at the beginning... why not? If you get bored, that's why empty character slots are there. Plus, you could add in a secondary class system(though I personally dislike how MMOs today handle that)

(what's L2 btw?)

Haha.. a spell that they used to repair (reparo) glasses (occulus). Having a mage be able to repair items would be neat. Lighting torches, cutting obstacles... all great ideas that mean that one would need to include such obstacles and torches within the game's world. Such interactions are fairly uncommon, but make your character and story a little more immersive.

I like your idea of the civilian better. Perks at gathering ownership of larger estates and etc. would really make them useful.

With regards to multiple characters, there's a bit of a dilemma. On one hand, you are able to restart the game however you wish regardless of the status of your original character. On the other hand, if you have guild wars and turmoil between different player communities, a valid way to take advantage of your adversaries would be to re-roll and infiltrate their community.

I kind of think the effect of multiple character slots is more positive than it is negative, though.

Funny you should mention infiltration. One of my many class ideas is the Spy... the class would come with a special ability that enables them to wear any clothing, robes, or armor, but without and effects if they don't fit the equipment requirements. In addition, they can use "aliases", changing the name other players see them with, and magically changing their facial appearance temporarily(yeah, my Spy class would be utility skill-heavy). Their other utility skills my Spy would have would involve stealth, and their attack skills would mainly be surprise attacks, or simply attacks that don't leave evidence.

Would that cause drama? Oh yes it would. But I want my MMO to have as much Video Game Cruelty Potential as possible, but utilize in-story punishment features, like dungeons(in the traditional sense, not in the RPG sense) for each kingdom, and prison islands and whatnot. So getting caught spying would be very bad, cause your char could be held as a prisoner of war until a trial is held, or if your char is strong/skilled enough to escape. Though if your spy escapes, you'll be hunted by bounty hunter players... you get the idea :p

Examples of my other classes that focus on utility skills include Enchanter, who can alter or power-up equipment, environment, and other things, and the Surgeon class, who you can pay to have your character's body permanently upgraded like adding wing implants.Of course, there's random other utility skills for combat classes that I'm surprised no one has thought of yet, such as the Ninja class having a buff that does nothing else but change the color of your clothing to solid black, effectively averting the Technicolor Ninjas trope.

(apparently I'm not allowed to add external links yet, so pretend you were linked to TVTropes via the mentioning of Video Game Cruelty Potential and Technicolor Ninjas)

That is an awesome spy.

And I guess having multi-chars, allowing a char to be jailed might be interesting and possible.

It'll just have to be balanced out to avoid... griefage ( new word).

Try to post links now. I changed some things recently.

Well that's the thing... if a game's to be realistic, well... grief happens even nowadays IRL(framing people for crimes, for instance). The only way to balance it really would be to try having a trial by jury system(with the jury not allowed to be on the defendant's friend list), maybe a lawyer sub-class...

Yeah, that would be pretty in-depth. :p

Though that's if griefing happens in a specific situation. Griefing in the usual situation, PKing and all... well why not? I mean if it's realistic, the PKer is taking a BIG risk by killing. Plus, I'd want to encourage drama anyway. I want to encourage plausible interaction. Hiring bodyguards, exercising caution while traveling alone, etc. I just don't want people getting PKed all the time.

Yes.

I like games that are realistic, but when you have a to trade off the "fun" for realism, people are easily turned off. I put fun in quotes because to me, the negative consequences in game are needed to enhance future fun. A lot of new gamers don't want really ANY negative effects on their characters.

But I guarantee if you make a POLISHED game that actually works with these mechanics, it will be a success in its own right.

I would maybe propose an automatic voting system. A window might pop-up on random "jury" players (you can't choose this hehe) and say "Jay Jay has committed a crime and is being sentenced to X. His crime was X and players X X and X saw the crime. Is he guilty? (Y/N)"

I agree that drama does fuel the game if it's legitimate drama .

Oh I wouldn't stop there. I'd give some classes abilities that get stronger or weaker depending on karma level. For instance, my Dark Knight class would get stronger with higher negative karma. There would even be downright evil skills like one with bonus attack power if the Dark Knight is slaying a child or pregnant char. Make the option of other players be able to be the story's villains.

I probably should've put this in my PK thread, but meh.

And that's how it used to be in many games .

People became so well known for antics that they were KoS... not because they were just not part of your team, but because the were known for such villainy.

However, while on the grand scheme of things there should be equal balance between good, bad, and neutral, there are many less terrible actions by most people. There are bad actions, yes, but the terrible actions are fairly minimal. This is partly because of society and how we learn, which in order to implement that in game, those tools need to be thoroughly fleshed out pretty quickly so that those things can create a world where people will actually want to play in.

Exactly, MMORPG player villains are such a staple in MMOs that MMOs need to start integrating that aspect into their games. Since people are bound to be cruel, developers should give them skills & whatnot that plays that cruelty up. Bonus exp if that monster you killed was someone's pet, ignoring the target's defenses if they're not in combat mode, and others that enhance steak/surprise attacks and dirty fighting.

Of course, players who do this would be weaker to anyone fighting on level ground with them.

"I believe that they should be meant to have their own thing, without being totally even when going head-to-head. For example, Clerics shouldn't be able to fight off an Assassin unless the Cleric is a lot more powerful."


Beautiful statement.